tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post7048526006071662303..comments2023-03-29T09:40:29.908-04:00Comments on Frum Heretic: The Documentary Hypothesis Confirmed!Frum Heretichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-76267502403580261502008-09-22T08:30:00.000-04:002008-09-22T08:30:00.000-04:00Hi this is the anonymous who made the comments abo...Hi this is the anonymous who made the comments about the totality of the evidence. I have the same belief in the mabul as Marc Shapiro does, which is to say, I interpret it allegorically.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-63639963818455302792008-09-20T21:01:00.000-04:002008-09-20T21:01:00.000-04:00A smoking gun IS conclusive proof!A smoking gun IS conclusive proof!Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-86890793620644180122008-09-19T15:14:00.000-04:002008-09-19T15:14:00.000-04:00>Nothing that would hold up in a court with Jam...>Nothing that would hold up in a court with James Randi as the judge...<BR/><BR/>Ok, do you have a smoking gun?Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-7178748513620293292008-09-19T14:24:00.000-04:002008-09-19T14:24:00.000-04:00"Do you have any evidence for it?"Nothing that wou..."Do you have any evidence for it?"<BR/><BR/>Nothing that would hold up in a court with James Randi as the judge...Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-61599915095423013382008-09-18T21:15:00.000-04:002008-09-18T21:15:00.000-04:00> Although I do not discount - uh, shall we say...> Although I do not discount - uh, shall we say - revelatory aspects to parts of it.<BR/><BR/>It would be nice, but do you have any <I>evidence</I> for it?Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-71880056104091685092008-09-18T21:11:00.000-04:002008-09-18T21:11:00.000-04:00Baal (I can't just refer to you by your "first nam...Baal (I can't just refer to you by your "first name") Habos - "Never assume the obvious is true" (Safire).<BR/><BR/>But in this case it is. Although I do not discount - uh, shall we say - <B>revelatory</B> aspects to parts of it.Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-57892230545013554662008-09-18T19:17:00.000-04:002008-09-18T19:17:00.000-04:00FH,> as I am not a naturalistBut you are a natu...FH,<BR/>> as I am not a naturalist<BR/><BR/>But you are a naturalist with respect to the formation of the Bible, I assume.Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-16542450864651308902008-09-18T17:50:00.000-04:002008-09-18T17:50:00.000-04:00Anonymous: it is not illogical or even intellectua...Anonymous: <I>it is not illogical or even intellectually dishonest to give more credence to views which I believe to be in accord with the TOTALITY of the evidence</I><BR/><BR/>So what do you do about the mabul story as described in the Torah? Since the TOTALITY of evidence says that such an event did not happen (as described), do you then rely on moshol and allegory? (Please note that I am truly curious about how individuals deal with this problem, and am not just being argumentative here.)Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-22515275725973222652008-09-18T17:39:00.000-04:002008-09-18T17:39:00.000-04:00The DH had nothing to do with the onset of my skep...<I>The DH had nothing to do with the onset of my skepticism. And so, what I read of the DH makes lot's of sense on it's own and it also supports the model I already believe in, a natural one.</I><BR/><BR/>Birds of a feather! (Except possibly those last two words, as I am not a naturalist. On a theist-atheist continuum, I'm on the theistic side of agnosticism!)Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-55572389974593093872008-09-18T11:33:00.000-04:002008-09-18T11:33:00.000-04:00Frum H, can you get rid of that word ver. It's a r...Frum H, can you get rid of that word ver. It's a real pain.Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-63100217229801586812008-09-18T11:32:00.000-04:002008-09-18T11:32:00.000-04:00Anonymous, >but if I have other reasons for bel...Anonymous, <BR/>>but if I have other reasons for believing in the accuracy of the Old Testament, then it is not illogical or even intellectually dishonest to give more credence to views which I believe to be in accord with the TOTALITY of the evidence<BR/><BR/>That's very well said. In my case, it's the opposite. The DH had nothing to do with the onset of my skepticism. And so, what I read of the DH makes lot's of sense on it's own and it also supports the model I already believe in, a natural one.<BR/><BR/>Nevertheless, I have been trying to get my hands on Kitchen just to see what he has to say.Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-10946675870980313472008-09-18T11:08:00.000-04:002008-09-18T11:08:00.000-04:00The truth is not decided in by whether he is a maj...The truth is not decided in by whether he is a majority or not-if he is right, and I find that he argues his case well-I haven't seen any substantial rejoinders, then he is right. Of course I found Kitchen because I wanted to confirm my point of view, but if I have other reasons for believing in the accuracy of the Old Testament, then it is not illogical or even intellectually dishonest to give more credence to views which I believe to be in accord with the TOTALITY of the evidence, whether in the realms of religious experience, Jewish history or other reasons to believe n the veracity of Judaism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-65262017232408283122008-09-15T14:38:00.000-04:002008-09-15T14:38:00.000-04:00I'm sorry, but DH is just nonsense.I'm sorry, but DH is <A HREF="http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2007/04/who-invented-exodus-academic-joke.html" REL="nofollow"> just nonsense</A>.jewish philosopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987540457195983665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-73043317440027119532008-09-14T13:39:00.000-04:002008-09-14T13:39:00.000-04:00Of course he is not going to argue his case on rel...Of course he is not going to argue his case on religious grounds. But an evangelical Christian nevertheless has a major vested interest in attempting to disprove the DH. <BR/><BR/>Let's be honest here. You are quoting a minority scholarly opinion (and it's a tiny minority) because it jives with your point of view. You didn't <B>arrive</B> at your point of view because of Kitchen anymore than you believe in the truth of the New Testament based on Kitchen.Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-14716617011652726022008-09-14T08:16:00.000-04:002008-09-14T08:16:00.000-04:00However Kitchen doesn't argue his case based on re...However Kitchen doesn't argue his case based on resorting to the bible being the 'word of God'. He argues using traditional academic methods. I challenge you to find one place in OROT where he makes an argument based on his religious beliefs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-13396429508392887712008-09-13T23:38:00.000-04:002008-09-13T23:38:00.000-04:00>And, as been pointed out to me by people much ...>And, as been pointed out to me by people much more knowledgeable of the DH, the names of God also correlate with other textual differences.<BR/><BR/>Holy Hyrax replied:<I>Ya, except where it doesn't, then there is a bit of kvetching a bit as well :)</I><BR/><BR/>Yep, I do not disagree. There is certainly plenty of DH kvetching.Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-6996604055505573072008-09-13T23:36:00.000-04:002008-09-13T23:36:00.000-04:00Kenneth Kitchen is also an evangelical Christian w...Kenneth Kitchen is also an evangelical Christian who believes that the New Testament is the word of God. Does he also know "what he is talking about" in this case?Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-25784206456127764562008-09-13T16:40:00.000-04:002008-09-13T16:40:00.000-04:00One thing that leaves me slightly sceptical about ...One thing that leaves me slightly sceptical about this whole DH thing is that a scholar employed by a prominent university (Kenneth Kitchen) can still say that there's no solid evidence for it. You might disagree with him, but he's a highly regarded scholar, who knows what he is talking about. His book takes the minimalist position to threads, and can probably just about fit in with a liberal Orthodox version of events.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-51705385199541262282008-09-12T12:14:00.000-04:002008-09-12T12:14:00.000-04:00I'm not sure if its such a stretch. Could be, ...I'm not sure if its such a stretch. Could be, this was something widely employed by all ancient men when relating to their Gods.<BR/><BR/>>And, as been pointed out to me by people much more knowledgeable of the DH, the names of God also correlate with other textual differences.<BR/><BR/>Ya, except where it doesn't, then there is a bit of kvetching a bit as well :)Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-68457516713609973142008-09-12T11:42:00.000-04:002008-09-12T11:42:00.000-04:00DH is just a lot of vague hunches, about which no ...DH is just a lot of vague hunches, about which no two Bible critics agree. The original basis for it, however, is what I wrote above.jewish philosopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987540457195983665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-74973695649071353702008-09-12T09:41:00.000-04:002008-09-12T09:41:00.000-04:00Interesting stuff, but it seems to be a bit of a s...Interesting stuff, but it seems to be a bit of a stretch to take the Egyptian composite and extend this to YHVH/Elohim. <BR/><BR/>My take is that most DH scholars don't acknowledge the assertions of the traditional Orthodox view regarding "aspects" of God, but OTOH the rachamim/din division cannot be consistently applied in every case and requires stretching & kvetching to do so. (But even that is a major oversimplification in how the two names are traditionally understood.) And, as been pointed out to me by people much more knowledgeable of the DH, the names of God also correlate with other textual differences.Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-45264298216844293872008-09-12T01:04:00.000-04:002008-09-12T01:04:00.000-04:00Regarding the Yhvh/elohim question, I wrote a post...Regarding the Yhvh/elohim question, I wrote a post about egyptian dieties that touches on this a bit. (2nd quoted paragraph)<BR/><BR/>http://holyhyrax.blogspot.com/search/label/EgyptiansHoly Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-1360825119065078022008-09-11T17:35:00.000-04:002008-09-11T17:35:00.000-04:00As for YHVH/Elohim, if one claims that this repres...As for YHVH/Elohim, if one claims that this represents merely a Mercy/Justice division, then one has to be consistent with every appearance of the terms. And I don't believe that it washes except by using the most convoluted justifications.<BR/><BR/>Regardless, the DH has gone way beyond Wellhausen, but even he had a much more sophisticated theory than you are implying.Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-31278453109327139702008-09-11T11:03:00.000-04:002008-09-11T11:03:00.000-04:00The Documentary Hypothesis merely rediscovers what...The Documentary Hypothesis merely rediscovers what the ancient rabbis always knew: God’s has two <A HREF="http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm" REL="nofollow">character traits</A> – the trait of mercy and the trait of justice. Mercy is represented by the name YHVH while justice is represented by Elohim (see <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_Rabba" REL="nofollow">Midrash Braishis Rabbah</A> 73:3). And of course Deuteronomy is written in a different style because it is a speech given by Moses, not God speaking. What's the big deal? Maybe for Christians like Wellhausen this was all a revelation, however every 10 year old yeshiva student should know this.jewish philosopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987540457195983665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-49973368485195705012008-09-11T08:26:00.000-04:002008-09-11T08:26:00.000-04:00Meaning because ancient documents crumble? Maybe o...<I>Meaning because ancient documents crumble? Maybe one day there will be another Qumran.</I><BR/><BR/>Well that's one reason. But equally important is that the professional scribal class dedicated themselves to only the most important religious documents. Once the textus receptus was established, there would be no one to perpetuate the transmission of the source documents. And any heretical sects that maintained separate documents would have succumbed to religio/politico pressure and quickly disappeared (just look at the absolute power that Ezra & Nehemiah had in this regards to establish the status quo.) So all we have today are the Samaritans who - while there is debate as to when they were established - have some small but significant differences in their Torah, and the evidence left by Qumran which was way after even the latest DH estimates of the final redaction.Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.com