tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post7468719480828610353..comments2023-03-29T09:40:29.908-04:00Comments on Frum Heretic: Why Believe in Prophecy?Frum Heretichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-84395782682294748462009-08-30T21:13:51.441-04:002009-08-30T21:13:51.441-04:00I'm very acquainted with Pro Shapiro's wor...I'm very acquainted with Pro Shapiro's works. I don't recall him saying anything about Rambam that would suggest he was hiding his true beliefs regarding the criteria for prophecy (after all, this is based on explicit Torah passages, unlike - for example - resurrection of the dead.) But I'll check his and Menachem Keller's books regarding these principles.Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-2891592827147865152009-08-30T20:49:41.837-04:002009-08-30T20:49:41.837-04:00FH,
"No way around that one, Moshe!"
P...FH,<br /><br />"No way around that one, Moshe!"<br /><br />Possible way around: As stated, Rambam often takes theological positions for mass consumption that are not his true views. This is particularly true in halachic works like the MT. See Marc B. Shapiro, The Limits of Orthodox Theology, pp. 118-121.Moshenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-86160556433184064222009-08-30T18:44:47.391-04:002009-08-30T18:44:47.391-04:00Yes, of course the essence of a prophecy is in its...Yes, of course the essence of a prophecy is in its message. But what gives the prophet his credentials as a true prophet and not a false one? Rambam explains this in great detail in the Mishneh Torah, and it is the <b>accurate, repeated prediction of the future.</b> No way around that one, Moshe!Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-64719139954225395762009-08-29T21:51:04.368-04:002009-08-29T21:51:04.368-04:00FH,
To the best of my recollection, in the Guide ...FH,<br /><br />To the best of my recollection, in the Guide Rambam writes of prophecy as essentially as a level of intellectual perfection,as opposed to the sort of the fortune teller version you cite. The former is almost certainly his true view. He often writes things for the consumption of the masses in opposition to his true view, and freely acknowleges that, as I recall, in the hakdamah to the Guide.<br /><br />Personally, I think both you and the "fundies" miss the boat here. The essence of the prophetic message is their moral pronouncements, not their predictions.As AJ Heschel wrote in his book "The Prophets",[T]he prophetic speeches are not factual pronouncements...[The Prophet] dwells upon God's inner motives, not only upon His historical decisions...the fundamental experience of the prophet is a fellowship with the feelings of God..... Ibid., pp..29-31.Moshenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-32154486287354726712009-08-28T13:20:26.197-04:002009-08-28T13:20:26.197-04:00You know Happy, it gets harder and harder to even ...You know Happy, it gets harder and harder to even speak to you when every single comment of your is just pure cynicism. Thats all you have.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-76490070591206102372009-08-28T11:11:47.650-04:002009-08-28T11:11:47.650-04:00"There is a reason I dislike Rambam more and ..."There is a reason I dislike Rambam more and more."<br /><br />Cause he was the last somewhat rational Jew?<br /><br />"Anywho, in the time of Rambam, everyone was close to God..."<br /><br />Are you serious!? You need to get your history from somewhere other than Artscroll books.<br /><br />"Deuteronomy 30 describes how the Jews will be scattered among the nations only to eventually return to Israel. How could the Torah predict such a thing unless it were divine? This indeed seems to be a very powerful argument."<br /><br />It is!? Look in the dictionary.<br />See: Self-fulfilling propchecy.<br /><br />Prophecy is always good for a chuckle or two. Have you actually read Nostradamus or Nach predictions? To call them vague is an insult to the concept of vagueness. And the prophecies that actually have some accuracy (e.g. Yaakov blessing the shevatim) were written after/during the events they're supposed to be predicting. Ever wonder why Jacob or Ezekiel didn't predict the rise of America as a superpower...or any event after the time of Nach? <br /><br />One last question: If I accepted the prophecies in Deutoronomy as divine, what about the JEP authors? Did they have powers of prophecy too?Happynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-91657996389992073112009-08-28T00:25:24.946-04:002009-08-28T00:25:24.946-04:00Thanks, once again.
And it looks like Rabbi Yitzch...Thanks, once again.<br />And it looks like Rabbi Yitzchok Blau on WebYeshiva has a blog about prophecy, too. He just posted his second installment.shmuelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-64798639544116611002009-08-27T21:47:01.286-04:002009-08-27T21:47:01.286-04:00OK, I went through the daatemet essay. Much of it ...OK, I went through the daatemet essay. Much of it shows how specific prophecies for good were supposedly false. That's not something that I'm that interested in here, but the conclusion is, and it makes a similar claim as my post, viz. "...first we decide he was a true prophet, and if it becomes clear he erred in his words, we settle all problems in any way possible, our only goal being to keep from calling him a false prophet... From all that said above we have found that there is no way to determine who is a false prophet and who is true."<br /><br />One idea that I neglected to include in the post is a critical one: "a prophet who foretells doom may not have his prophecy fulfilled". This just compounds the problem of determining the veracity of a prophecy.Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-85937001993303468272009-08-27T18:11:22.225-04:002009-08-27T18:11:22.225-04:00>"And all of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba...>"And all of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, knew that Samuel had been proven to be a prophet unto God."<br /><br />The hebrew says וַיֵּדַע, כָּל-יִשְׂרָאֵל<br /><br />Easily mean recognize or knew without implying some sort of prophet test administered. There is a reason I dislike Rambam more and more.<br /><br />Anywho, in the time of Rambam, everyone was close to God yet God did not bring them back to Israel. How did Rambam approach that? Wouldn't his own experiences lead him to say the prophecy was false?Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-74499433410120956562009-08-26T16:57:00.364-04:002009-08-26T16:57:00.364-04:00It's in their "Essays" link and is t...It's in their "Essays" link and is titled:<br />"A Clarification on the Issue of Prophets in Israel and How to Recognize a True Prophet From a False Prophet"<br />They raise some fine questions. Thought you'd like to see it, acrimony and all!<br />And J, that really is funny.shmuelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-52971590067908249962009-08-26T09:28:07.036-04:002009-08-26T09:28:07.036-04:00Get this - the reason God is spelled G-d on daatem...Get this - the reason God is spelled G-d on daatemet is because the woman who translates the material from hebrew to English is frum and insists on spelling it that way. (Someone actually asks Yaron Yadan that question on his website and this is the answer he gave). That is one of the funniest examples of cognitive dissonance that I have ever come across.J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-70355176816632542832009-08-26T08:01:30.812-04:002009-08-26T08:01:30.812-04:00Shmuel - can you provide a direct link for me?
BT...Shmuel - can you provide a direct link for me?<br /><br />BTW, daatemet is a strange site in many ways. Much of what they say could have been taken from typical anti-Semite works, especially with their selective quoting of Chazal in their attempt to belittle the Talmud. Yet at the same time they seem to have respect for many religious Jewish personalities. And why does an anti-religion site spell God as G-d?<br /><br />Nevertheless, even though they are often too acrimonious for my taste, I think that daatemet provides some great info on their site. Information which traditionalists either do not confront or brush aside with inadequate apologetics.Frum Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-310633442210374868.post-92121784519741812502009-08-26T01:03:00.085-04:002009-08-26T01:03:00.085-04:00Interesting, FH. Thanks.
Please read the essay on ...Interesting, FH. Thanks.<br />Please read the essay on prophecy over at www.daatemet.com and then please post your thoughts on it.shmuelnoreply@blogger.com