Taking a story literally or not, when I read a story in Chumash - again, believing everything is coming from God - whether or not that story actually happened has nothing to do with its message. Do you understand my point? If someone believes, it's like the flood story, so there's an argument - it happened or didn't happen - or the story of creation. It's not a question of when you study it, it's not coming to tell you this happened. Chumash is using that story to give you a message. Now it could be the story did happen. But even if it didn't happen, that only makes the story even more meaningful. It's a tricky point, but it's really important. Meaning, if you believe in God, if you believe in nevuah, if you believe this work is coming from God, if God makes up a story to teach you a lesson that doesn't make the story any less meaningful. In fact, it makes it more meaningful...Of course, Rabbi Leibtag starts with the belief that God wrote the Torah in its entirety, so I guess with this a priori assumption his point is valid. But at the same time, it seems to be nothing more than clever stretchin' and kvetchin'. His assertion can be used for apologists when encountering any piece of evidence - no matter how compelling - that the Torah may be a compilation of multiple source documents.
Do we keep Shabbat because God created in seven days, or does God create a creation story so that we would keep Shabbat in a meaningful way. Do you follow? The second approach is much more meaningful, it makes much more sense. It could be that it did take 7 days, but even if it didn't it wouldn't make any difference. The message you get from Sefer Bereshit, the meaning that you gain from studying the creation story in depth, and looking at schematics and the way it's setup, it's said so beautifully and so much depth to the story and this deep message with man's relationship with God. That message has nothing do with what happened in physics. Big bang, small bang, middle bang. It has nothing to do with it. That message is eternal. And if someone can prove to you that it didn't take six or seven days, so what? It doesn't mean a thing. And if God gives you that story to teach you a message, then it's only more meaningful if it didn't happen. Understand? So therefore that whole argument of whether something happened or not is trivial.
Now, the danger of that approach is where do you draw the line? You get fundamental fundamentalism where maybe that didn't happen, or maybe the avot didn't exist, maybe yetzias mitzrayim didn't happen, maybe I don't exist. Do you follow? You go on and on and you can't draw the line and therefore what usually happens is because I don't know where to draw the line you don't draw it at all. That's also dangerous.
So whaddya think?
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Whether or not Jesus existed is immaterial. God wrote the stories in the New Testament to teach us lessons. And if God gives you that story to teach you a message, then it's only more meaningful if it didn't happen. Understand? So therefore that whole argument of whether something happened or not is trivial.
Or
Whether or not the Trojan War happened is immaterial. The Gods related the stories in the Illiad to teach us lessons. And if the Gods give you that story to teach you a message, then it's only more meaningful if it didn't happen. Understand? So therefore that whole argument of whether something happened or not is trivial.
Or
Whether or not Odin gave his eye to the Fates in exchange for knowladge is immaterial. The God have us these stories to teach us lessons. And if the Gods give you that story to teach you a message, then it's only more meaningful if it didn't happen. Understand? So therefore that whole argument of whether something happened or not is trivial.
>stretchin' and kvetchin'
I like that. Classic Modern Orthodox Darshanus. This is where I think the Charedim have it over the MO. The MO seem to try to be Metaher Es HAsheretz with 150 Taamim. The Charedim just say it's a Sheretz, end of discussion. Now we say it's a Sheretz and so what, but that's another story.
As you say, what does that do to the Exodus? But possibly even more to the point, what does that whole concept do to the Kuzari principle?
>And if God gives you that story to teach you a message, then it's only more meaningful if it didn't happen. Understand?
Sure. It's sort of what Christians say of believing: the more unreasonable the claim (god is the wafer (or something like that)),that's an indication of greater faith.
Chumash is more meaningful if the stories didn't happen
-Menachem Liebtag
So whaddya think?
I think that the Chumash is more meaningful.
I don't believe a word that Tanach says but that being said, I would keep a few of the fun rituals if orthodox judaism wasn't an all or nothing deal.
Well, the first question is, since God is making up the entire world as He goes along, why would he bother to write factually inaccurate stories about it? Presumably, He could have produced accurate stories which would be even more compelling (and would be effective proofs of the Torah's truth).
Interesting perspective, though. I guess, since I don't really believe any of the stories in the Torah, they must be even more meaningful to me!
I would tweak the Rabbi's argument by downplaying his emphasis that fictionalized bible is better than if it had been factual. There are obvious things in the Bible that are 'real' (laws, rules) and there are stories . A story need not be true to teach a lesson. Many fictional books I have read have given me insights into human nature and relationships. If I read a textbook that codified those same messages in a list of do's and don'ts, I would be asleep in under 3 minutes. Attaching a message through a medium that is easier to remember, transmit, and one that actually strikes a chord with me, will be much more effective. And if that story is the basis for developing a system of laws and practice aimed at achieving the intended lessons, so be it. That is our heritage.
I think the real fundamental error in our religion is that we have mistakenly come to the conclusion that it was indeed literal and intended to be literal. We have become stuck in the mindset of children listening to a great story and only comprehending literally. It's time to grow up, acknowledge it for what it is and what it is not.
NOTE: Guide for the Perplexed, Introduction:
"Now, on the one hand, the subject of Creation is very important, but on the other hand, our ability to understand these concepts is very limited. Therefore, God described these profound concepts, which His Divine wisdom found necessary to communicate to us, using allegories, metaphors, and imagery."
Ralbag, Milchamos Hashem, p.98 "If the literal sense of the Torah differs from reason, it is necessary to interpret those passages in accordance with the demands of reason.
I would like to listen to the entire lecture but I cannot find it on the site.
Could you provide a link to it?
Tigershark - unfortunately TIM doesn't have direct links to individual lectures. Go to www.torahinmotion.org, MP3 store, product search, then select "Panels" from category and "Leibtag" from speaker. That will show you the Interpreting the Bible link. The lecture is $3.99, but there was a free coupon on Hirhurim (which may be expired by now.) It's a good idea to check out the weekly Audio Roundup on Hirhurim as they often provide a coupon for free TIM lectures.
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